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Posted by: Deviant Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:32 pm
Joined: 10 Feb 2004  Posts: 1131
 Post Post subject: Promoter Ethics ! (JOHN HOWARD)

Location: Cleveland, OH USA
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****************MODERATORS NOTE****************
*************************************************
This thread was split off from a thread announcing John Howard's return to Cleveland. Deviant is the promoter who brought him the first two times -- and Wish hosted one of the events and has asked him to return.

This thread has brought up some interesting concepts whose end result could be helpful in re-developing a healthy music scene.
*************************************************


Just spoke to John yesterday, he actually thought that HeadRush was bringing him out again. Quite a shock and disappointment to him to learn the truth. We were planning to bring him out again this summer, as was commonly known and as we've done for each of the last two years, but scrap that plan. Apparently the other 100 house DJs out there weren't available for you to book instead.

Really classy move. The disturbing trend of unoriginality in Cleveland events continues. Who's next? Jondi & Spesh?

Oh well, so much for civility. But you can only slap me in the face so many times before I slap back.

In any case, I'm glad that John will be back to share his sounds with Cleveland. He's one of the best around.

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Posted by: Tekatoka Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:26 pm
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While many people may not know the personal relationship we have with John, I look at it this way:

John is coming to Cleveland, and someone else is absorbing the financial risk!

YES!

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Posted by: Metz Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:02 pm
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I wasn't aware that promoters had exclusive claim to certain DJ's and out of courtesy shouldn't book them. So Wish should have chosen one of the "100 other DJ's" out there instead? What about you? So John comes here in April. Does that blow the whole year for you booking him? Should Wish have checked with you first? Did they know you were planning on bringing him back in the summer? They should assume you are because you did two years in a row?

As you said, he puts on an excellent show. We all agree. That's why he's being booked.

As to why John thought you were bringing him in, where did he get that idea? Did his agent tell him who was booking him?

I don't know why you are taking this as a personal attack and attacking Wish with the "real classy move" remark.

It's a business like any other business.

You know I luv ya, but please, that was a bit much.


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Posted by: Tekatoka Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:22 pm
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Metz wrote:


It's a business like any other business.



True, but like I said, many people may not know we know John outside of the 'business' side. We're not just the kind of promoters that bring people in on some sort of contractual, analyze-the-numbers, black-and-white routine. The guys we have brought to Cleveland over the past two years were brought and chosen with the care and personal commitment that anyone who would risk thousands of their personal savings for would select. It reflected a personal choice and commitment to what we believed in, and in the people we brought out, not just what we thought would ring in cash. When it's a personal relationship with the DJ, it hits the heart personally as well as the pocketbook financially.

And yes, business is business. Perhaps if things were handled by the club more professionally last year, we 1. would not have lost so much money while the bar rang in like crazy and 2. would still be doing headlining events. Last I learned in business school, "Ignore" is not an appropriate business response to repeated calls and e-mails.

I am happy that we started something here that someone else now sees value in. I know we "did good." I am glad John gets a chance to rock our worlds. I think Dave's problem with this is that it's unfortunate that we are not still a part of the continued relationship that we worked so very hard and risked so very much to create.

End of discussion. Everyone get out and enjoy John.

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Posted by: Deviant Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:54 pm
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Metz wrote:
I wasn't aware that promoters had exclusive claim to certain DJ's and out of courtesy shouldn't book them.


I would, of course, never make such a claim. However, I do believe, especially in a small city like Cleveland, that courtesy and respect are paramount toward the successful future movement of the local scene.

If I were, for example, to book Tortured Soul knowing full well that Brad has brought them out several times in the past two years, I guarantee you that I would be the subject of much scorn and ridicule. But I would at least have had the courtesy and respect to see what Brad's future plans were with Tortured Soul prior to booking them.

What makes things somewhat worse was that we had hosted our last John Howard event at Wish. It feels like the ground that we tried to break by bringing John out is now being exploited. Just as it would be opportunistic if we booked Tortured Soul at Mercury Lounge.

Metz wrote:
So John comes here in April. Does that blow the whole year for you booking him?


Yes, I think so. I think that it does a disservice to the local scene to keep bringing out the same DJs that have just been here, especially since most promoters/clubs do it because it is seen as the path of least resistance to a quick buck.

We take pride in bringing talent to Cleveland that is new and fresh. We wish that others would do the same, especially those who have the resources; then perhaps our music scene would be more vibrant and innovative rather than constantly recycled and stagnant. We will not bring John out again this year anymore because of our commitment to our principles to provide Cleveland with something that they haven't just heard in the last few months.

We truly want to partner with clubs to accomplish our goals of furthering the music. But in situations like this, we feel like we've been circumvented, not partnered with, after we have demonstrated our personal commitment to working with them in the past.

Metz wrote:
I don't know why you are taking this as a personal attack and attacking Wish with the "real classy move" remark.


I imagine that if you were more familiar with the events and conversations leading up to this, it would be quite clear to you why I take this personally. Especially when Wish takes credit on their website for the DJs that HeadRush and Plate Tectonics have brought out. They certainly did not ask for my permission to do so, and I think that I least deserve the courtesy of that.

Metz wrote:
It's a business like any other business.


Indeed, but that does not mean that businesspeople cannot treat each other with mutual respect and consideration. It is, in fact, possible to conduct business in a way that does lead to a zero-sum result for the players involved.

Metz wrote:
You know I luv ya, but please, that was a bit much.


I love you, too, and I appreciate your thoughts.

I'm not trying to be petty. Wish did do us a favor by providing us a venue when Cloud 9 fell through. But that does not excuse the issues that followed. And this event is just the icing on the cake...a really disgusting cake.

--D

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Posted by: validation Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:05 am
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i feel where you guys are coming from. jude, filly, and i have repeatedly seen clubs and promoters attempt to rebook acts that we have relationships with and do business with on an ongoing basis. i could tell you many funny stories about clubs calling agents up and trying to go around me. in fact, it happened this week (you know who you are!) . . . i'm happy though i have a great relationship with a handful of agents that actually contact me when an unknown promoter or club contacts them.

perhaps you guys should be invited to promote the john howard show? :wink:


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Posted by: Tekatoka Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:11 am
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dj vodka wrote:

perhaps you guys should be invited to promote the john howard show? :wink:


Nah, that's cool. We already have dinner plans with him and I'm happy to let Wish pick up the tab. :wink:

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Posted by: Metz Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:11 am
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I'm glad this discussion remained civil. You are correct that I do not know the intimate details of your previous business relationship with Wish.

I still don't think that Wish having John in April would hurt you if you had him back in July or later. He's well liked by the Cleveland scene and will still draw a crowd.

The fact that you have a personal relationship with John outside of "business" should not factor in someone elses desire to book him.

Do you know if Wish actively tried to get him or was the show offered to them by the booking agent? That is something else to consider.

I don't think either of us have all of the facts surrounding the booking and shouldn't rush to judgment.


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Posted by: dan polito Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:13 am
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dj vodka wrote:
in fact, it happened this week (you know who you are!)


dammit brad, i thought we agreed to keep my agent out of this.

Razz


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Posted by: stoutxtc Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:34 am
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Uhh...I'm not trying to get in the middle of this, but from what I found out Wish was offered a deal to book John, while trying to book another DJ with the same agent so they took it.

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Posted by: Touch Supper Club Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:26 am
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We are a club, we book DJ's, that is what we do.

We also welcome any others that would like to book DJ's and have them play at the club.

John Howard was offered to us, we like him, we booked him.

We book DJ's and sounds that we like. We don't know if anyone has "exclusive" rights to a DJ, that would mean that you are their agent and being paid to book your DJ's. So we contact the agent and invite them to come to experience Wish and put Cleveland on the map.

Maybe we shouldn't book DJ's anymore.

We don't start drama, we donít participate in drama.

Thank you.

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Last edited by Touch Supper Club on Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted by: jovana Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:47 am
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yay john howard!

that being said, i for one wouldn't be sad if Headrush brought him out again come summertime...

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Posted by: Leon Bibb Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:09 am
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Wish Nightclub wrote:
We are a club, we book DJ's, that is what we do.

We also welcome any others that would like to book DJ's and have them play at the club.

John Howard was offered to us, we like him, we booked him.

We book DJ's and sounds that we like. We don't know if anyone has "exclusive" rights to a DJ, that would mean that you are their agent and being paid to book your DJ's. So we contact the agent and invite them to come to experience Wish and put Cleveland on the map.

Maybe we shouldn't book DJ's anymore.

We don't start drama, we donít participate in drama.

Thank you.


Thanks for bringing him in. Pay no attention to the haters. We are concerned about hearing John Howard play good music. Not where and with whom he goes to dinner. This thread is actually pretty funny. There is alot of irony in talking business on an online forum and acting in a complete unprofessional manner.


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Posted by: Tiesto Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:21 am
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Threads that take a turn like this shouldn't be in the Events section... Joe Q Clubber or one of the many guests on this board are going to get turned off by what they are going to perceive as DRAMA.

Moderator?


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Posted by: Tymezup Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:03 am
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Good point, 1200.

I went to move it, but I'm not sure where to put it. It seems other forums and mailing lists this stuff stays in the tread. Had this topic gone WAY awry I would be inclined agree with you but I'm actually GLAD this topic came up because I think that given the professionalism of everyone invovled the end result will be positive and not negative. Let me think about all of this for a bit.

While on the subject, though, I think the points that were brought up are very good ones, and most of what I have to say can be summed up by saying this: I didn't know who John Howard was until Headrush brought him out.

When you are a promoter this kind of stuff will happen and most promoters will eventually end up on both sides of the fence. Mazi? Kaskade? Feelgood? Acosta? Icey?

I find it interesting that only %10 of the people at Kaskade 1 were at Kaskade 2 and I think this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem. I was told by an outsider 3 years ago (with the arrival of a certain large scale promoter) that this town would end up getting divided. Our once thriving club scene has been turned into a bunch of competing concert venues.


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Posted by: Tymezup Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:12 pm
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When I said both sides of the fence, I specifically meant Mazi. Perhaps the people at Mercury felt the same way about Mazi coming to Abbasso.

There is a lot more to the bigger picture than just the immediate (John Howard) and much of that lies in the fact that there are people in Cleveland who ONLY book talent based on the success they have seen others have with a paticular "dj concert".

Wish has made it clear that they want to promote House Music and I think that also makes a difference because they are doing more than booking "acts that draw". On the other hand, can an average customer who isn't "in the loop" go to Wish on a weekly basis and expect to be able to dance on a dancefloor to House Music?

Booking Agents are the ones who sell the concept of "dj concerts" and perhaps we really just need a detoure from all of that.


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Posted by: validation Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:13 pm
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Quote:
I find it interesting that only %10 of the people at Kaskade 1 were at Kaskade 2 and I think this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem.


1. $20 cover vs. $5 (at Wish)
2. Lack of promotion (I didn't see one flyer or ad)
3. Sorry, but promoter's rep.


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Posted by: Tymezup Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:13 pm
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Hmm... I was responding to David but his post seems to have disappeared.


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Posted by: Tymezup Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:14 pm
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dj vodka wrote:
Quote:
I find it interesting that only %10 of the people at Kaskade 1 were at Kaskade 2 and I think this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem.


1. $20 cover vs. $5 (at Wish)
2. Lack of promotion (I didn't see one flyer or ad)
3. Sorry, but promoter's rep.


These things I know, but this isn't the first example of such a phenomenon - which was my point.

It does, however speak volumes about what Wish is doing!


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Posted by: pepper spray Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:27 pm
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dj vodka wrote:
Quote:
I find it interesting that only %10 of the people at Kaskade 1 were at Kaskade 2 and I think this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem.


1. $20 cover vs. $5 (at Wish)
2. Lack of promotion (I didn't see one flyer or ad)
3. Sorry, but promoter's rep.


I didn't go because of reasons 1. and 3. And because there probably wouldn't have been much room to dance. And because of Cloud 9's drink prices.


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